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Rough_Willow 9/19/2023 4:53 PM
@luma44 When you get a moment to outline the ban escalation process, I can compile a response to outline issues and suggestions for how to improve it.
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Totally receptive to that
4:54 PM
We already have I'm sure notes somewhere taken from a meeting and it's just a matter of finding them
4:54 PM
I will say that bans like many other things are subjective
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Lyrad (Crybad) 9/19/2023 4:54 PM
If only someone kept notes of the meetings
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Which means that we have to have room for situational considerations
5:00 PM
I will have this done within 2 days
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5:00 PM
I've been putting a lot into this and I really need an evening to catch up on some personal stuff
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Lyrad (Crybad) 9/19/2023 5:09 PM
You know that fascism thing that our users keep accusing us of? It would certainly make life easier.
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Lyrad (Crybad)
You know that fascism thing that our users keep accusing us of? It would certainly make life easier.
Rough_Willow 9/19/2023 5:14 PM
Inconsistency fosters distrust, distrust leads to accusations of fascism, fascism leads to some bitching uniforms by Hugo Boss.
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Rough_Willow
Inconsistency fosters distrust, distrust leads to accusations of fascism, fascism leads to some bitching uniforms by Hugo Boss.
I'm waiting for the downside /j
5:16 PM
No, it's true. Like I said we really did revamp our banning internally from where it was. But there's always room for improvement and that is the intent here.
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luma44
No, it's true. Like I said we really did revamp our banning internally from where it was. But there's always room for improvement and that is the intent here.
Lyrad (Crybad) 9/19/2023 5:16 PM
So no new uniforms?
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'Fraid not. But we can have casual Fridays every other week.
5:18 PM
With regard to that one user that kicked this all off @Lyrad (Crybad), did you reduce the ban to 3 days?
5:18 PM
SeniorMuchachito
5:18 PM
I can do it when I get home if you haven't
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Lyrad (Crybad) 9/19/2023 5:38 PM
Oh goddamnit
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Rough_Willow 9/20/2023 8:22 PM
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Actually tonights the night
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I have enough energy to make it accurate, but not enough to make it pretty. So, apologies in advance for the lack of style points. Historic context: The mod team is a largely flat, democratized structure, with equal weight given to votes cast by old dogs and brand new goldfish. Every voice and vote matters. We move as a team, and sometimes we discuss things for many many many days back and forth in passionate ways before we arrive at consensus or compromise. Why on earth am I starting here? Well, it's important to understand that it's a relatively flat organization and that there's a lot of intentional equality impressed upon every new mod. There's a sense that new mods have that they should stay quiet and observe -- no, we want to have unfiltered feedback and fresh perspectives on an equal basis. However, there are layers to the mod team. For the most part, these really have to do with focus: the higher up, theoretically, the broader the view. However, one of the abilities unlocked by certain higher layers that are not accessible to newer mods is the ability to ban a user. This is a tool withheld for the more experienced mods and one that we do not take lightly. Although we calibrate OFTEN (and you're seeing evidence of this -- the work we're doing here is not theater... you're seeing discussions that are essentially the same work in another server), the mods are autonomous. We aren't always around modding and the same time, we don't always see the same content in the queue etc... I checked our mod meeting notes for context. Prior to April 23, 2022, bans were distributed by the higher level of mods on a case by case basis with no real consistency. What some mods would see as a permaban might be a 7 day, or a 1 day ban for others. Some mods though it was appropriate to ban trolls for 42069 days (115ish years) but not perma them. We'd frequently get requests for unban reviews and would be fairly liberal about doling them out if the appeal seemed sincere (e.g. there was acknowledgement that the content was inappropriate and there was effort made to explain how it would not be repeated). Trouble was that there was no real way to log this except for searching for users having been discussed in the discord. As a result, there would be users who caught multiple perma bans and were let back in multiple times. <Barney getting thrown out of bar.gif> I'm not sure of the exact timing, but we've developed some tools, along with "reddit user notes" that allow us to track bans and see a record of who has been banned and for how long. There's still a bit of manual work to determine why ban but we can at least track when and how many bans easily. But, understand that prior to April 23, 2022, it was sort of a free for all. As a user, your ban experience would be dictated by who issued the ban and your appeal outcome would be the result of the subjective combination of who saw it, when, and how it came across to those who saw it. Obviously, there was room for improvement to this system. During this particular meeting, we decided to adopt a "unified ban approach" style. I will admit that I was not initially in favor of this plan, but have since come to respect it in both purpose and practice. Our current ban procedures are as follows: When a user commits an infraction, in most cases, we simply remove the offending content. We then "tag" users with mod notes that allow us to keep internal score (e.g. - "Hates Pulte, watch for Rule 1" or "Can get political in the comment section") which allows us to watch for trends but remain decentralized for our day-to-day modding stuff, but have shared knowledge about potential troublemakers quickly. If we see somebody who is getting rude in the comment section and has multiple tags indicating that they have violated rule 1 in the past, then they typically get a warning and a temp ban. (edited)
9:21 PM
For a first time offense, the ban issued is for 1-7 days, with the average (and majority) being 3. This allows us to give a specific warning to the user. For a second offense, the ban length is typically not less than the first ban, ranging from 3-14 days. We have been known to give a third and final ban of 14-30 days. Once somebody has had 3 temporary bans and broken another rule, they are typically permabanned. So that is the "ban length" component. Couple addendums: -We don't typically ban somebody for minor infractions. I mean, let's face it - there's a difference between treating somebody like absolute dogshit in the comment section and accidentally using a post flair that is reserved for the weekends. The VAAAAAAAAST majority of the bans we issue are for Rule 1 Violations (Be nice or else). The second most common reason is Spam (think: spambots) and third is probably a tie between No Brigading and Rule 5 (No Meta Content) but the vast majority of those are also Rule 1 violations at the same time (e.g. "Anybody who likes this post should suck a bag of dicks and die in a fire", "All you apes should die"). -At any point in this process, somebody can appeal their ban (any ban, any length) via modmail. These are always deliberated and decisions are made based at least 3-4 mods (any level mod) agreeing with a decision to unban (or uphold). Successful appeals have a unifying thread - they are respectful and provide some evidence of self-awareness that they understand how they got there. Unsuccessful appeals are rude, hostile, and lacking self-awareness. I don't have data on this, but I think most of the team would agree that we unban respectful appeals more than we uphold bans. -At any time, we reserve the right to issue a ban outside of the above "ban length" guidelines. You're a meltdowner who comes here to troll in the daily? That's a permaban. You said that "Kenny should meet his death in a guillotine in the public square. DM me for info"... that probably won't be a 1 day ban. Often, Reddit catches some of the more egregious things and issues bans, and those bans get wrongly attributed to actions taken by our team. You might ask for some additional data. I think one really relevant piece of data is how many bans we issue a day. Here's a screenshot from our modlog showing all the bans and reasoning for the past 10 days. Each entry is one ban, showing that it's 1-2 bans a day on average. (edited)
9:21 PM
9:21 PM
While we welcome process improvement suggestions, here's my personal position on bans and why they should not be the primary focus of the SCC. Many of these bans are carried out to protect the sub from Reddit's intervention. We can't afford to kick the can and gently nudge people over and over again through 1-2 day bans simply because that feels more fair. I'm also quite resistive personally to changing our current ban structure and ban length. As you can probably see, we are devoting an exceptional amount of time to this sub every day. Dealing with trolls and people who cannot be kind and treat others as adults pulls us away from more aspirational things that we want to do for and with this community. So, while I feel quite comfortable hearing any feedback you all may have and/or answering questions about this process, be prepared that I may personally offer some resistance to significant changes. As you've heard me say time and again (hopefully) discussion is good, and I promise to listen to any suggestions in good faith. I also encourage every mod to consider any suggestions and see if we should consider changes here. Whatever items come up, I will make sure we add to our next mod meeting for debate and discussion. (edited)
thanks 3
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luma44
For a first time offense, the ban issued is for 1-7 days, with the average (and majority) being 3. This allows us to give a specific warning to the user. For a second offense, the ban length is typically not less than the first ban, ranging from 3-14 days. We have been known to give a third and final ban of 14-30 days. Once somebody has had 3 temporary bans and broken another rule, they are typically permabanned. So that is the "ban length" component. Couple addendums: -We don't typically ban somebody for minor infractions. I mean, let's face it - there's a difference between treating somebody like absolute dogshit in the comment section and accidentally using a post flair that is reserved for the weekends. The VAAAAAAAAST majority of the bans we issue are for Rule 1 Violations (Be nice or else). The second most common reason is Spam (think: spambots) and third is probably a tie between No Brigading and Rule 5 (No Meta Content) but the vast majority of those are also Rule 1 violations at the same time (e.g. "Anybody who likes this post should suck a bag of dicks and die in a fire", "All you apes should die"). -At any point in this process, somebody can appeal their ban (any ban, any length) via modmail. These are always deliberated and decisions are made based at least 3-4 mods (any level mod) agreeing with a decision to unban (or uphold). Successful appeals have a unifying thread - they are respectful and provide some evidence of self-awareness that they understand how they got there. Unsuccessful appeals are rude, hostile, and lacking self-awareness. I don't have data on this, but I think most of the team would agree that we unban respectful appeals more than we uphold bans. -At any time, we reserve the right to issue a ban outside of the above "ban length" guidelines. You're a meltdowner who comes here to troll in the daily? That's a permaban. You said that "Kenny should meet his death in a guillotine in the public square. DM me for info"... that probably won't be a 1 day ban. Often, Reddit catches some of the more egregious things and issues bans, and those bans get wrongly attributed to actions taken by our team. You might ask for some additional data. I think one really relevant piece of data is how many bans we issue a day. Here's a screenshot from our modlog showing all the bans and reasoning for the past 10 days. Each entry is one ban, showing that it's 1-2 bans a day on average. (edited)
Rough_Willow 9/21/2023 12:31 PM
One point on ban duration: I think the ban lengths should be adjusted to levels. ex: 1-3;4-7;8-14 (etc.) Secondly, the time between infractions should impact what level of ban should be applied. Having been involved in this subreddit for multiple years, I've been temporarily banned at least twice before. The last infraction was nine months ago. Does it make sense for my next ban to have a duration of 14-30 days when I haven't had any problems in the last nine months? I think that if I user hasn't had an infraction in the last three months, there's no reason to increase the length of a ban. As long as there's been tracking on actions taken on users, this sort of system allows users to be human and have bad days so long as they're not frequently re-offending. Being able to warn a user that more than three offenses in a 3 month period will result in a permanent ban. This makes escalation of duration make sense and the consistency can lead to better behaved users. It may be necessary to have a better tool for monitoring mod actions on a user and I think this sort of tool could be developed by crowd sourcing.
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Rough_Willow
One point on ban duration: I think the ban lengths should be adjusted to levels. ex: 1-3;4-7;8-14 (etc.) Secondly, the time between infractions should impact what level of ban should be applied. Having been involved in this subreddit for multiple years, I've been temporarily banned at least twice before. The last infraction was nine months ago. Does it make sense for my next ban to have a duration of 14-30 days when I haven't had any problems in the last nine months? I think that if I user hasn't had an infraction in the last three months, there's no reason to increase the length of a ban. As long as there's been tracking on actions taken on users, this sort of system allows users to be human and have bad days so long as they're not frequently re-offending. Being able to warn a user that more than three offenses in a 3 month period will result in a permanent ban. This makes escalation of duration make sense and the consistency can lead to better behaved users. It may be necessary to have a better tool for monitoring mod actions on a user and I think this sort of tool could be developed by crowd sourcing.
TiberiusWoodwind 9/21/2023 1:14 PM
This is a good point. Incidents like that aren’t always a pattern in behavior and instead can be due to some type of unusual stressor.
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Rough_Willow 9/21/2023 1:20 PM
By allowing this sort of cooldown, moderation doesn't have to continue escalation when it's not needed. In this way, moderator can "Remember the Human". We all try to have good days, but we're not always at our best.
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Well, so we do utilize levels. Do you mean narrower levels? Or to make sure there's no possibility of overlap? /Gen Bear in mind that it is literally one click for us in one of our internal bots see precisely how many and how long somebody has had in terms of prior ban(s). If the intent is to make it easy to sight read what ban somebody may be on based on what "zone" of ban they just received that actually wouldn't really be necessary for our purposes. (edited)
1:47 PM
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Rough_Willow
One point on ban duration: I think the ban lengths should be adjusted to levels. ex: 1-3;4-7;8-14 (etc.) Secondly, the time between infractions should impact what level of ban should be applied. Having been involved in this subreddit for multiple years, I've been temporarily banned at least twice before. The last infraction was nine months ago. Does it make sense for my next ban to have a duration of 14-30 days when I haven't had any problems in the last nine months? I think that if I user hasn't had an infraction in the last three months, there's no reason to increase the length of a ban. As long as there's been tracking on actions taken on users, this sort of system allows users to be human and have bad days so long as they're not frequently re-offending. Being able to warn a user that more than three offenses in a 3 month period will result in a permanent ban. This makes escalation of duration make sense and the consistency can lead to better behaved users. It may be necessary to have a better tool for monitoring mod actions on a user and I think this sort of tool could be developed by crowd sourcing.
We do take into consideration duration between bans. There's a lot more scrutiny if people are actively earning bans in a short (e.g <90 day) period. I didn't mention it, but that is the case. Getting two warnings and keeping your nose clear for a year is a different scenario than escalating warnings back to back in succession. (edited)
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Rough_Willow
By allowing this sort of cooldown, moderation doesn't have to continue escalation when it's not needed. In this way, moderator can "Remember the Human". We all try to have good days, but we're not always at our best.
I get it, completely. Everybody has a bad day or says something that they later realize was not what they should have said. It happens to everyone.
1:51 PM
I hope my message impressed upon you that we do take bans seriously, with weighted consideration... but swing the hammer hard on trolls, bots and others clearly not here in good faith.
1:51 PM
1:51 PM
Like this guy from the other day
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Rough_Willow 10/13/2023 9:49 AM
I doubt there's been time to consider how my tiered ban approach would be received. Also if there could be a codification of the appropriate escalation of ban durations would be a win that I'd like to claim if that gets implemented. (edited)
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Well, we might need to revisit this. We currently have a tiered system (edited)
9:50 AM
I think your proposal was that the tiers, basically, couldn't overlap
9:50 AM
That's, as I recall, the big distinction
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Rough_Willow
I doubt there's been time to consider how my tiered ban approach would be received. Also if there could be a codification of the appropriate escalation of ban durations would be a win that I'd like to claim if that gets implemented. (edited)
Lyrad (Crybad) 10/13/2023 10:17 AM
quick question about banning in general and just looking for your opinion. Are you hoping that we stick to they system in a uniform way? Are there instances where we can skip the 1-3 day ban and go right to perma? For instance, someone who posts negatively about Superstonk on GMEmeltdown with no history on Superstonk, comes over to start shit. Usually that is a straight perma for us and we skip the first 2 tiers.
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luma44
I think your proposal was that the tiers, basically, couldn't overlap
Rough_Willow 10/13/2023 10:27 AM
There's also a smaller range in each band.
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Lyrad (Crybad)
quick question about banning in general and just looking for your opinion. Are you hoping that we stick to they system in a uniform way? Are there instances where we can skip the 1-3 day ban and go right to perma? For instance, someone who posts negatively about Superstonk on GMEmeltdown with no history on Superstonk, comes over to start shit. Usually that is a straight perma for us and we skip the first 2 tiers.
Rough_Willow 10/13/2023 10:31 AM
I'd like a system which is kindest to our users. Which is why I'm advocating for smaller bands in the ban ranges and codifying the escalation of temp ban duration. Even having it written so that people can see would be appreciated. I think there's room for a flowchart that describes when and how the normal escalation should be ignored.
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Lyrad (Crybad) 10/13/2023 10:33 AM
If we give you input, would you be willing to put that flowchart together?
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Rough_Willow 10/13/2023 10:33 AM
Yes, I can put together a Power Point flowchart.
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Hey rw, I'm reaching the end of my trip. I'll be out of pocket much of the day and traveling all of tomorrow, provided that DC doesn't explode in terrorism and war (things are being very weird here) I don't think any of us are opposed to putting in more formalized process of bans in place, and I'm totally receptive to you drafting something that we can either agree to or build off of. I guess something that I should just point out that might help guide these discussions... Sort of what our criteria are for what we need and some of the key points that got us where we currently are. Yes, It is easier to have "sentencing guidelines" in the sense that we don't have as much room for inconsistency. But short bans mean more bans if people continue to act out. And that can kicking can be frustrating for all: mods and users. We want to make sure that there's adequate time for people to actually cool down. Bans are designed to do one of two things. Provide cooldown time and let people re-engage more constructively... or remove bad actors fully. Temp bans, truthfully, rarely lead to significantly improved behavior. So our bias as a mod team has been to not have 30 steps. If somebody is showing that in rapid succession they're willing to break rules we found most success with just moving to a perma. Of all the ideas you've brought, I think the most beneficial process to add would be a sort of formalized reset... where if you're good for 3 months (or some number) you could reset on the lowest tier of bans. (edited)
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10:36 AM
We don't have a formalized process for that
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Rough_Willow 10/13/2023 10:39 AM
"But short bans mean more bans if people continue to act out." Three days later, seven days later, two weeks later, permaban. If you're looking at the upper range of the ban lengths I suggested, there's four actions over a twenty-four day period.
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I think that's actually probably more rare. I could get you firm data... But that will take time. I think it's more likely to be one day three day seven day
10:39 AM
And then it does feel like rapid succession
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Rough_Willow 10/13/2023 10:39 AM
"Temp bans, truthfully, rarely lead to significantly improved behavior." peeks around nervously
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I almost wrote, "you being a notable exception"
10:40 AM
I do have to jet, but I'm looking forward to seeing your proposal
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10:41 AM
A rainbow dinosaur birthday party is calling my name. Well, technically my wife is. But you get it.
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Lairian -Flairy Type- 10/13/2023 11:00 AM
We can also try R_W's way, and revisit the conversation in two months. We're not locked in forever.
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Lairian -Flairy Type-
We can also try R_W's way, and revisit the conversation in two months. We're not locked in forever.
Lyrad (Crybad) 10/13/2023 11:01 AM
......
11:01 AM
agreed
11:01 AM
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Rough_Willow
"Temp bans, truthfully, rarely lead to significantly improved behavior." peeks around nervously
TiberiusWoodwind 10/16/2023 9:51 AM
I mean I’m thinking on how we handle behavior issues in school. A temp ban is essentially a suspension. The suspension isn’t really solving the behavior issue, it’s allowing the rest of the class (the sub in this case) to function without the out of line behavior. What addresses the behavior is the aside discussion between mod/member covering what caused the behavior and what the sub expectations are. If the member doesn’t want to accept that the sub has rules, there’s no number of bans that’ll change it. If the members outburst was spurred by some other issue, direct them how to bring it up with mods first in the future. If they understand that part we should see progress with them. But just flat out temp bans do not do much, they are just one part of the cocktail
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Lairian -Flairy Type-
We can also try R_W's way, and revisit the conversation in two months. We're not locked in forever.
Rough_Willow 10/18/2023 2:12 PM
I'd love that and to see the changes to how users are reacting to it!
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